Lost Discussion Group: Put Your Foot Down

Has anyone ever asked whether the guy who was in the Hatch before Desmond got there was an Other or not. That's something that's been bugging me a lot.

I can't really think of any way that the foot fits into the whole scheme of things unless it's part of some ancient Island civilization It would take some serious effort to build a statue of the magnitude that foot suggests though. Do people in the Simpsons universe only have 4 toes?

One of the great things about Lost is the mystery, and I love that they answer questions in a way that brings up a zillion new ones. I think that the 4-toed statue is going to be tied into whatever excavation was going on that Kate and Sawyer were forced to work on - that there is something ancient and powerful within the island that the Others are trying to get to. It looked old and broken, so I am assuming that it was an ancient statute like the Colossus of Rhodes. Re: the 4 toes. Could be, um, aliens. And I remember reading somewhere that eventually humans will evolve to not have a pinkie toe. Could be that there was an old population of people who evolved away from other people, they had 4 toes and could harness the forces of nature on this mystical island? Hmmm. Probably not, but interesting to think about. Crazy stuff.

What's a Discusssion group?

It seems obvious that there was some society on the Island before Dharma and everyone else. Ben made reference to "the Temple" and there was that column thing that Locke's dad was chained up to. I suppose we're going to find out that they somehow worshipped the island because it has mysterious powers, and that Jacob is some kind of god to them. Bleah. I'm not sure we needed layers upon layers of mysterious island inhabitants.

@William: sigh.

It's a discussion group, but with an air leak.

Fixed.

The Others did not build the foot statue. Instead, it is the remnants of a centuries to millennia old culture that used to live on the island.

To me, it is clear that the producers plan on having the ruins play a big role in Season 4. First, we were visually reminded of them, when Ben bound original Sawyer to a very old stone pillar. Next, Ben said that the Others were headed to "The Temple". It is unlikely that he means this in any modern religious sense, as it is something like December 23rd/24th and no one has even mentioned Christmas/Hanukkah/etc. - instead, I think that the temple is also part of these ancient ruins. Note that Ben told Locke they were headed to an "old place", but he could have been referring to their final destination at The Temple, or their temporary stop at the original Sawyer ruins.

In my mind, the Others will attempt to hide out from Naomi's invading Hanso force in the cavernous, decaying ruins of the ancient temple. Presumably some to all of the Losties will escape the Hansos (Hansies? sounds kinky) and eventually join the Others, as that is a lot of set for only Ben and Locke (of the main characters) to interact with. I suspect we will find out that physics (electromagnetism, etc.) have been weird on the Island since even their time.

My view of who has lived on the Island over the years:
Ancient era: Ruins culture. (Was it source of Atlantis myth?)
??? - Second half of the 19th century: Slave mining. As revealed in the Lost Experience, and partially seconded by Locke, the Black Rock was a slaving ship owned and captained by Magnus Hanso, (illegally) in the later half of the 19th century. (With his era of his clothing, Jacob is probably Magnus himself.) Locke thinks that they were there to mine, but I have another theory: they were also there to excavate the Ruins culture.
20th century - Purge: Hanso/Dharma. Looking for the final resting place of his ancestor Magnus, Alvar Hanso and his forces run into the Island. Discovering its weird nature, they set up shop and begin experimenting, turning into the Dharma Initiative we know and "love".
???? - Current: Others. We don't know what their origins are. I personally don't think that they have been on the island for much longer, in actuality, probably less, than Dharma. Richard, after all, is not Polynesian (ruins era), or African (slave era), and his eternal youth is just as likely to be a result of Hanso's Life Extension Project as it is some fountain of youth on the Island. I'd also note that Richard had modern (albeit "hippy") clothing on when he first encountered Ben, and I haven't seen any cotton fields for him to make his clothes out of on the Island.
16 years ago - Current: Rousseau (and originally the rest of her expedition)
3 years ago - Current: Desmond
3 months ago - Current: Losties
Any minute now: Hanso, again.

@Tom Shaw

In that scene where Ben meets Richard at a very young age he is wearing something like what a conquistador (sp?) might have worn. Flowing cotton shirt with large cuffs and pantaloons. He was definitely dressed like a Spanish Sailor.

@Tom Shaw

In that scene where Ben meets Richard at a very young age he is wearing something like what a conquistador (sp?) might have worn. Flowing cotton shirt with large cuffs and pantaloons. He was definitely dressed like a Spanish Sailor.

Of course that would beg the question of how his clothing survived that long but some artistic liberties are necessary I think.

IDG = IGN. Again, fixed.

They're not typos, they're, um, Easter eggs! Find them all!

I also think you meant 'six episode fall run', not six season!
And I have no idea about the foot.

@aatish: Oh, for the love of God. Thanks. Can you tell I rushed this one out? (Actually, I'm sure they all read that way.)

I think the statute ties in with one remaining unanswered question - the identity of "Adam and Eve" from the caves, and why they were carrying black and white rocks. Lost is funny in the sense that mysteries/questions that are front and center somehow (Who are the Others? What caused the plane crash? Who is Patchy) seem to get answered very quickly (relatively speaking).

Other mysteries though seem to fade out of consciousness, which to me (knowing Lost's tendency to shock us) indicates that we're in for big reveals regarding forgotten, unknown mysteries. We've already gotten one big reveal, and arguably the most shocking of all - they DO get off the island, but it's not necessarily happy for everyone (although that is perhaps not the "end" of the story that we saw in the Season 3 finale). These other long-festering but forgotten questions include, for example: Charlie's apocryphal "Guys, where ARE we?" from the pilot; the identity of Adam and Eve and why they were carrying the black and white rocks; how Rousseau came to be on the island and what exactly happened to her trip-mates; what exactly is "curing" Locke and Rose; what the purposes of the Hanso experiments were; why Desmond couldn't sail off the island (and where his previous hatchmate came from); the significance (if any) of the numbers; the reason at the end of Season 2 those two guys "found" the anomaly from a post in the Arctic; where the food drops come from; and why no one has come looking to rescue them (although we got a hint from Naomi that the world thinks they're dead).

So the statue? Another of these "forgotten but important" mysteries. I'd say it plays into the mystery of Adam and Eve - the island is a place of old and ancient significance (maybe due to its electromagnetic energy, which an old civilization came to "worship" as a deity?) that Dharma "rediscovered" and made its place of experimentation. Richard is a survivor (and apparently eternal or at least not aging?) member of the "old" camp (Hostiles) that worshipped the island (faith) and found Dharma's invasion and study of its mysteries (science) a violation of the island's spirit and power. He teamed up with Ben to rid the island of "science", but Ben didn't let go (a la Locke's "you're a hypocrite, living in these houses instead of off the island" speech) of science and now the island is beset with problems (and calling out to men of faith such as Eko and now Locke for salvation from the science of Ben).

Jack's call threatens to bring Dharma fully back to the island - and thus to kill it's "faith based" power. The Losties were thus "brought" to the island to repopulate it with people (like Locke) who would worship its powers and reawaken its faith based powers, but getting off the island threatens to destroy it (Jack's "we weren't supposed to leave" speech at the end of Season 3).

Crazy idea? I think it fits with the faith v. science underpinnings of the show....

Another thought that fits into the faith v. science idea - the inability to have babies on the island. Could it be the island's "deity" is striking against the Others for their continuation of a life of science by inflicting an Old Testament-like plague on their ability to reproduce? And Ben's bringing of Juliet to the island - a woman of "science" - is exactly the WRONG means to address a "faith" based (or caused) problem?

Black-white rocks = ying/yang = faith/science? And thus in a ying "world" of "science", the island is meant to be the yang of "faith"? And bringing science (the Others) or the outer world to the island (via Jack's call to Naomi's boat) threatens to spin the balance of the world out of control?

@Karma (original post)

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Just who Kelvin was working for, and what they were doing in the Swan (long after The Purge!), is a giant monkeywrench that no one seems to ask (or even realize). James, you may want to have this as a Discussion Group question.

Let's look at what we know so far:

Kelvin says that he is a Dharma employee. While this seems unlikely, there is no evidence that he is an Other, either. He can operate the Swan station, as he knows the codes, etc.

Desmond shows no past evidence of working for either Dharma or the Others. Mikhail does try to kill him, more evidence that Desmond is not an Other, but then again, it was at a distance and Mikhail may not have recognized him. (Desmond does try to kill Mikhail too.) He can operate the Swan station.

Various 815 Losties also operate the Swan station. None of them appear to be working for Dharma or the Others.

The Others know about the Swan station - Ben and Juliet watched the Losties via the cameras in the Station. The Others appear to allow non-Others free reign of the Swan station, despite that failure to input the numbers alerts the entire outside world to the location of the island!!?!?

Via the Lost Experience, The Numbers are important - they are status indicators to the Valenzetti Equation, which is extremely important to Dharma/Hanso. The operators of the Swan station have to input The Numbers. Their work is apparently discarded (the endless status report tubes lying on the ground).

So what the heck can you get out of this mess? Here's my theory, which is a mess of supposition (that I can't find any evidence against):

One of the goals of the Dharma Foundation on the Island was to monitor The Numbers, and if any change to the Valenzetti Equation had occurred. As a result, they attempted to monitor The Numbers in an as independent fashion as possible: They isolate a team of two people to the Swan, and make them input the numbers every ~108 minutes. Their input is sent via pneumatic tube (they can't be physically handed off or vocally relayed to another person, as it risks the independence of the observers - note that the Swan members don't even know the results are being relayed to anyone) to someone who drives it off to the radio station, where it is transmitted over the radio tower.

After the Purge, part of Dharma finds out about it. As part of my peace treaty, the Others agree to let Dharma continue to staff the Swan and make their observations. The Others abandon the rest of the procedure though; the pneumatic tube results aren't picked up anymore, and the radio tower reports are replaced by a taped loop of the numbers. (As an aside, I have to remind you that Rousseau replaces the loop with her rescue message - presumably the Looking Glass continues to transmit the numbers. At least, it did until it was destroyed, yet another reason Hanso as a whole now knows something is up on the Island.) You've got me on how Dharma gets people on and off the Island.

As part of my 815 plot, Dharma (well, Mittlewerk) specifically staffed Kelvin in the Swan. To help the Losties, he began doing recon for them/Desmond (the Blast Door map), carefully keeping to the 108 minute expedition rule. His handlers specifically told him when to "escape" on Desmond's boat when 815 was doing its flyover to force its crash, unfortunately, Desmond was a little too forceful in playing his part (though Mikhail would point out that there's no guarantee Kelvin's injury was a fatal one).

@Tom: "One of the goals of the Dharma Foundation on the Island was to monitor The Numbers, and if any change to the Valenzetti Equation had occurred. As a result, they attempted to monitor The Numbers in an as independent fashion as possible: They isolate a team of two people to the Swan, and make them input the numbers every ~108 minutes."

Although, by the time Desmond arrives at the Swan, he and Kelvin are not "monitoring" any change to the Valenzetti Equation--they're keying in a memorized set of numbers by rote. (Right? Am I forgetting something?) Is there some part of the procedure that's been dropped? And what would happen if. in the meantime, the numbers actually did change, through whatever process Dharma was using to effect a change?

@Karma (later post)
I seem to be the only one, but I utterly disagree that Richard's outfit was sailor-y. If this is the outfit you are referring to:
http://www.lostpedia.com/images/b/bb/3x20-AlpertHostile.jpg
then that is not sailor-y, but much more 20th century indigenous Central/South American.

@James

Honestly, I don't know. You also have to take into account that the observers are being observed (by the Pearl), and that those observers are being observed (by the Flame). Just what is the experiment, who is the observer, and what is the control?
If the preset numbers are now "wrong", would the Swan station emit some other signal?
Are the strong electromagnetic forces in the Swan capable of changing the memories of the operators of the Swan, that if the Numbers are changed, the operator's memories of the "correct" numbers themselves are changed, and the outsiders notice the difference? Swan operators do seem to lack sanity in the long run.
Or something else?

I don't know, but the situation is so convoluted, and The Numbers so important, that it has to mean something, but what?

Kelvin says he's Dharma, but how does his appearance on the island fit chronologically with Ben's flashback?

If Kelvin was recruited by Ben, it was before the Purge. As discussed in previous postings, inputing the numbers kept the island invisible somehow. It would then be in Ben's best interest to keep somone in the hatch pushing the button. Perhaps when Kelvin went topside to inquire about his replacement and found no one he ran back to his hidey-hole.

Rousseau recorded he message in 1988. Kelvin was in Iraq in 1991, so when he got to the island the numbers were no longer being broadcast. So why was he pushing the button?

Oh, and the foot. No idea.

This all sounds great. I only got to skim it because I'm super busy at work preparing to go away for the weekend holiday where I'll be away from a computer to keep up with these theories.

One important thing to note: Those same black and white crystals that Adam and Eve had were on Desmond's table in his and Penny's flat during "Flashes Before Your Eyes". That coupled with his time travel and the "destiny" of him and her together have got to play a roll in the long run.

The foot never really interested me that much, stuff about Rosseau, Richard, Adam & Eve, etc always made me wonder a lot more.

Till next week!