Scalpel Fight! Moore and Gupta Throw Down on CNN

"Does anyone believe that the money for the French health care system is rooted up from the dirt of Perigord by trained truffle-hunting pigs?"

Uh, apparently Moore does. Because everytime Gupta pointed out that tax-supported systems are not free, Moore would adamantly say, "Yes, they are free." Nor did Moore seem to reconcile 2 positions - how Washington DC is in thrall to special interests, yet can be trusted to deliver quality health care (Walter Reed must not be on the list). And citing the timely deliver of Social Security hardly helps matters. Social Security is simply transferring wealth from existing workers to retired workers - it's not brain surgery.

Moore is perhaps one of the most clueless and biased people in America. His belief that health care in other countries is free reminds me of my 14 year old son who thinks the broadband connection I pay the bill for each month is free. Sure he can belly up to the keyboard and spend the whole summer on Myspace and playing online games for free.......as long as dad keeps paying the bill. Nothing in life is free.

What surprises me is that people like he and Ann Coulter on the other side are taken serious and given press. I guess it was a slow news day and CNN had to make some news to report.

Moore did say in the LKL interview (from the transcript):

MOORE: Well, he just used the line from my film where I said the French are drowning in taxes. That's my line.

I really didn't get the sense that he was denying that the French (and other systems) are paid for by taxes. Essentially, he was making the case that this system is better than the American system of paying (if you happen to be insured) through premiums, co-pays, out-of-pocket and so on.

Now whether that French system is actually better or not you can argue. But I'd have rather heard him and Gupta argue that than argue over what "free" means.

Meanwhile, I hope Keith Jr. is at least mowing the lawn.

Without having seen Sicko, and while acknowledging that Moore's statements generally are not as unbiased as he presents, I did find the Cuba information interesting. Not only does the US system rank merely 2 spots above Cuba, but both Moore and Gupta emphasize that the difference in the amount spent annually per patient is huge - I think it's something like $6500 (US) to $250 (Cuba), with the average life span being essentially the same. Which, I believe, is the underlying point - we spend all this money, and are our results really any better?

I'm no huge fan of Moore, but both Blitzer and Gupta came off as the bigger weasels in these segments, I think. None of the criticisms that Gupta wielded against Moore's film detract from its central point: The U.S. health care system is unjust, unworkable, inefficient, and beholden to special interests. Did they really spend 4 minutes arguing over $6,000 vs. $7,000 of per-capita spending per year? The point Moore was making wasn't damaged at all.

Between the movie, the Wolf Blitzer appearance, and the Adventures in Didactica conversation on Larry King, Moore's just confirming his status as his own worst enemy. Shifting the debate to wait times in Canadian ERs or per-capita spending in Cuba does nothing to advance the more significant issue of the sheer, baffling injustice of the U.S. system. It took me two years of living in Denmark to see how terrible our care is back in the States, and the insecurity of health care is one of the major reasons I'm not planning on returning. I must say, I miss the quality of the television, though.

James,

Oh yes, Keith Jr. mows the lawn and gets paid for it. I say paid. He never actually sees the cash. It goes to fund his trips this summer to Boy Scout camp, church camp and a week long backpacking trip to New Mexico. He doesn't actually spend the whole summer gaming online. Just the days that he is at home.

Trust me, Keith Sr. is making sure that Keith Jr. is getting schooled in the "nothing is free" philosophy.

The worst part of Gupta's performance was his flat out lie when Michael Moore pointed out that the guy Gupta used to criticize Sicko was from "a think tank group and a big Republican contributor."

Gupta's response "His only affiliation is with Vanderbilt University. We checked it, Michael. We checked his conflict of interest. We do ask those questions."

The person in question is Paul Keckling, whose PRIMARY affiliation as of October 2006 is with the lobbying firm of Deloitte Touche. And he is a significant -- and exclusive -- Republican contributor.

Perhaps more importantly, Keckling has made a career out of running "managed cared" medical and dental practices, and acting as a consultant to the insurance companies who use his research to justify denying people medical care. Keckling calls it "Evidence based medicine" -- but what its really about is the creation of protocols that result in denial of treatment by people sitting thousands of miles away from doctors and patients, using Keckling's formulations to say "no".

Gupta also talked about the "wait time" for cardiac catheterization in a WHOLLY deceptive manner -- suggesting that people who absolutely have to get cardiac catheterization immediately to save their lives have to wait six days. That is NOT true. Cardiac catheterization is primarily a testing procedure, one that is used far more aggressively in the US than in Canada, which prefers far less expensive and intrusive tests.

p_lukasiak,

Have you ever known Moore to like any reporting by anyone on his work? He believes he is incapable of error and expects everyone else to believe it too. Kind of like O'Reilly or Savage.