Romney's (Sort of) Religious Speech

I don't care in abstract if Mitt Romney is a Mormon, and if he was running a purely secular campaign, his religion would be a non-issue. But you can't actively court religious voters and then puff up indignantly when these same religious voters put your beliefs under a microscope.

This transparent, bloodless triangulation is what bothers ME, as a non-religious voter and television viewer.

I wonder if he would say "it doesn't matter what religion" if it were a Muslim.

Romney's a joke.

Agreed that Romney's a joke. I have a really hard time taking him seriously as a candidate. But then again, I'm not a republican, I'm not religious (spiritual, not religious), so I'm in no way a member of his intended audience.

I don't think that it is important for elected officials to be "religious" at all, and the god warriors really scare me most of the time. I would rather we elect rational individuals who will judge public and foreign policy based on: 1) reality, as evidenced by evidence, and 2) a quantifiable set of principles. One can be principled and good without being religious, which is a distinction that many (religious) people rarely acknowledge.

The argument comes down to this: I don't care what fairy tale Romney believes in as long as he believes in some fairy tale.

How stupid is that?

The whole religion in politics question comes down to the incorrect idea that religion is the basis for morality. If you're not religious, the thinking goes, you are immoral and therefore unfit to even live in America. (George HW Bush once said, "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots.")

What a mess religion is. Why anyone even entertains the idea is beyond me.

@Gerry: George H. W. Bush, by the way, introduced Romney before his speech.

Arrgh!

Romney gave his speech at the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library, hence the intro by the former president.

I still have'nt heard why mormons considered themselves christians? Why has'nt Mitt covered this in his speech? Is he ashamed of it?
If he believes in the same things christians do......Let's hear it !

I don't care what he is.....
VOTE RON PAUL !!! He's the only one with integrity.

Let's see, AL. Mormons consider themselves Christians because they believe Jesus was the son of God. Mitt doesn't just "believe the same things Christians" do, he is a Christian. Just because his take on Christianity is a little wackier than someone else's doesn't mean he isn't Christian.

I think faith can be a strength in a person's character...but I don't buy the argument that a lack of faith makes a person a worthless public servant (or citizen, or human being, for that matter). Although I won't be voting for either of them, I have a lot more respect for Huckabee's style - his forthrightness, really - over Romney's pandering approach.

It's getting a little Swamp-ish in here.

Jim--I'm curious about your take on the "controversy" over "The Golden Compass" (I figure this is more up your alley than straight-out politics, right?). The Christian Right (led by the blowhard Bill Donohue of the Catholic League, of course) is up in arms because the movie and books promote atheism.

If atheists protested "The Chronicles of Narnia" or "Passion of the Christ" for promoting Christianity, Donohue and his ilk would be the first to claim their rights were being trampled and they were being subjected to discrimination. Somehow, those rights never seem to go both ways. If Christians can use movies and books to promote their beliefs, why can't atheists or anyone else?

Because, Bemused, God is on their side! Can't argue with that. That's because it's crazy.

My fave quote: "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." That's Susan B. Anthony, the first actual woman to appear on a US coin.

@Gerry- I've met Christians who don't consider Catholics "true Christians." One would imagine Romney's "believing is important not the specifics" message prolly fell on some def ears out there.

That HW quote feels awfully discriminatory and ... well... non-American. Thats ironic right? atheist

woops that "atheist" at the end was just a spell check please ignore.

@Bemused,

I have to qualify that I haven't seen or read The Golden Compass (I'm more curious to read it than see it), but this just seems like the typical umbrage-taking of professional umbrage-takers, and Donohue is particularly good at summoning up outrage for an open microphone. I mean, I'm sure his offense is genuine and he's entitled to it, but yes, the movie promotes atheism--or agnosticism, or anti-theism--but so what? Movies promote ideas, at least we should hope they do.

I guess if there's a connection with this and the whole Romney flap, it's that, again, criticizing religious concepts and beliefs does not equal bigotry. And there's a difference between saying religious discrimination is wrong and declaring religion a sort of protected class of belief that must never be critiqued. Once you put an idea out into the world, it's fair game for criticism.

@carlostheatheistdwarf,

Strange that some Christians don't consider Catholics true Christians, considering that Catholicism was the first Christian religion.

What bothers me most about Romney's speech is his statement that freedom requires religion. That makes no sense to me. Anyone know what that is supposed to mean?

Romney is being manipulative and oversimplistic, and what he is saying is dangerous and unAmerican. I definitely don't think that "freedom requires religion". I think that many people throughout history have been inspired by their religious beliefs to stand up to unjust institutions and fight for freedom and equality in various ways (MLK, Gandhi, Bartolome de las Casas, Romero, etc), but somehow I don't think that is what he means. In many cases, religion and religious institutions have also stood firmly in the way of freedom - supporting racial/sexual subjugation, promoting unjust wars, etc. The historical intertwining of religion and politics cannot be boiled down to a stupid catch phrase like that.

He also seems to be muddling Religion with Denomination. I bet he would sing a different song if Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus were running. I think he's really saying that it doesn't matter what denomination you are, as long as you're Christian. Which is a whole other load of crap.

@Gerry,

Translation: "Hard-core Christian conservatives, please vote for me, not Huckabee. I'm just as intolerant of secularists as anyone!"

Anyone who truly believes in freedom of Religion should write on their heart:

"Freedom of Religion also means freedom from Religion."

Um. hi. I'm part of Romney's intended audience (maybe the only one here?) (Or maybe the only one here brave enough to throw herself to the wolves? ). 'Religious', if you can call it that, Republican, and I'm not voting for Romney. Mostly, it has little to do with his beliefs, although, I have to admit, that does play a role. You must admit, as a religious person or a secularist your view on the way the world works ultimately impacts the decisions you will make. The reason that this is different from blinded bigotry is that your race and your gender are rooted in your genetics and ultimately will not affect your decisions. You religious beliefs, however, rooted in personal choice and conviction will hold much sway in how you choose to conduct your life, your business and what you do in positions of power. As an atheist you cannot really get into the heads of and empathize how the world works to a believer. As a believer, you will never truly understand how the world presents itself to someone who disbelieves in any kind of diety. As a voter I want to place the person in power who simultaneously is the most competent and most closely mirrors my own world view.

To me, Romney's statement about no freedom apart from religion makes perfect sense. Why? Because I find intense freedom in the practice and observance of my religion. It is incredibly freeing to me, personally, to know that there is a God who loves and cares for me, to the point of sending his son Jesus Christ as an atonement for my sins, and that by believing in him, I can spend eternity with the creator of this world. There is intense freedom in knowing what I do here is no longer of great consequence because I am eternally minded. This world simply becomes a means to acomplish that end, eternal goal. That kind of freedom, seems like foolishness to an atheist, because if I disbelieve in the supernatural then I become a slave to the natural -- which is happening around me right now. The greatest I can hope for is to leave a legacy so that I won't pass from memory on this earth -- something which takes a lot of work and much acomplishment. Ironically, something that requires the amount of foolish freedom that either comes to those with a greater than average amount of personal bravado or to those who believe they are part of a greater cause...

But I will not vote for Romney, because I refuse to support someone who has flip-flopped their view on something as crucial and important to me as the abortion issue. Romney strikes me as someone bailing out a sinking boat by trying to tell people what they want to hear. I cannot build any confidence in his campaign, regardless of what he says about religion.

As a sidenote, I also *read* the Golden Compass years before the movie plans came out (as a child even! gasp!) and it did not affect or sway my beliefs. Although at the end of the day, I didn't appreciate the core messages conveyed by the novel, I was able to consider them, weigh them and make my own decisions based upon what I read. I apologise for the offense that the professional umbrage-takers (great phraseology, James) have caused you. I would also like to note that there are tons of Christian men and women that are tired of being marked with the Pat Robertson, Bill Donahue and James Dobson pen.

@Ashley:

There's a large quantitative and qualitative difference between: "my religion makes me feel free" (your position) and "freedom requires religion."

It has to do with how the phrases are articulated. Yours implies an individual level and a case study. Romney's statement is a generalization. He's basically saying that because I don't have religion, I don't have freedom.

@Ashley: Nothing to add to your comments, but thanks for posting from the other side, as it were. I wouldn't want this thread to become strictly an amen chorus--or, I guess, whatever the opposite of an amen chorus is.

@Ashley,

"if I disbelieve in the supernatural then I become a slave to the natural -- which is happening around me right now. The greatest I can hope for is to leave a legacy so that I won't pass from memory on this earth -- something which takes a lot of work and much acomplishment."

This is just another example of intolerance of athiesm. It attempts to paint the athiest as immoral and self-aggrandizing. As an athiest, I can tell you that I am not a slave to "the natural." In fact I would argue that I am free and you are a slave to the supernatural. My morality stems from a desire to treat people fairly, not to please a ghost who might reward me in another dimension for my good deeds. To me, religionists are less moral because their morality is inherently selfish. They fear punishment and wish only to gain access to heaven by their good deeds. It is not altruism, it's selfishness.

As for describing atheists as those who disbelieve "in any kind of diety," you seem all right with believing in any kind of diety. Would Zeus do? Poseidon? No, I assume you mean your God. How convenient.

@ Lott, you're putting words in my mouth that aren't there. I think it is a noble thing to leave a great legacy and I think that there are many admirable atheists that have done much good in the world. Also, you throw darts at my character when you assume that I as a Christian act with regard and dignity for others in order to gain eternal rewards. Study of Christian doctrine reveals that a believer does not gain favor with God through works, but by his grace which my good works -- whether I have them or not -- do not earn. If I work to please God, then it is not to curry favor with him, it is simply to please him.

Also, when I spoke of any kind of diety, I did, in fact mean any kind of diety. Why? Because as a Christian, it is easier for me to relate to a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a believer in pagan Greek gods and goddesses even than an atheist. Is this because I dislike them personally? Because I'm a religious bigot? No. Rather, it is because I have something in common with them in that I believe in a higher power. These other believers and I would obviously quarrel over other things, but we all agree that there is a supernatural power, something which I do not share in common with an atheist. And since I do not share that, I will never truly understand what is it like to be an atheist.