Vacation Robo-Post: Lost Discussion Group

The snarky answer is that we'll just have to wait an see next week. But as Sayid said in There's No Place Like Home, "They said it was suicide"... I'd agree that assisted suicide would fall under that. And that strikes me as a plausible reason for Sayid to have a falling out with Ben, if he didn't know the "whole" story.
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As far as tonight goes, does anyone think they'll actually make it onto the island? And when do we think the Leftbehinds will be?

I don't think Locke was "killed"; I think he was actually killed. The funeral preparation process would not exactly be comfortable for the living, nor would Ben need to stash his still living body in a meat freezer (ironically, the frost damage that would ensue would probably be worse than just letting his body sit around for a couple days). There's also the meta-explanation: sure, we the audience (or at least the people posting here) expect another Christian-reanimation when he gets back, but there's no reason that Locke or Ben expect the same when Locke gets back, is there?
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Now, whether Locke was willingly killed by Ben - entirely possible. Hawking could easily have phoned Ben up, said "your event window is coming" once she started getting data on the "Island hopping" we saw sketched out on the floor, and Ben goes to pay Locke a visit with the poison of their choosing (if we consider the obituary canon, Ben then sets it up to look like a suicide-by-hanging - "I've killed myself in despair, O6, because you won't come back").
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Of course, given that next week's episode title is "The Life & Death of Jeremy Bentham", I'm not sure we should spend that much time on this, given that we should have answers in 7 days anyway!

I don't think Ben killed (or "killed") Locke. It makes perfect sense for the story, but it doesn't sit right with me (then again, we saw how accurate my gut was when Ben really was behind the lawyers...). To be honest, I've been considering pretty much everything about the O6 as inconsequential. The only stuff I really care about hearing is whatever Ms. Hawking/Ben/Widmore(/Abaddon/Richard?)/etc. have to say about the Island and the nature of the Island.
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I think they'll make it to the Island tonight. If next week is the Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham, it makes sense that they'd throw that episode in between sections of the season. I only hope that tonight they show us some on-Island happenings, so we can find out when that gang is all at.
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I had an interesting thought about the greater story of the show itself. What if the Island itself is malevolent? I don't know about you guys, but I've always assumed that the Island is trying to keep the world going, and Ms. Hawking is trying to get people to the Island to keep the world going, etc. What if Ms. Hawking is trying to get people to the Island to, for the lack of a better term, defeat it? I dunno. The thought struck me, so I thought I'd toss it out to the group to discuss.

Hmmmmm, 316....what could that be?
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Biblical reference to the most famous Bible verse of all time (and one frequently referenced on stadium signs nationwide)? John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." And remember -- JOHN 3:16? As in John LOCKE 3:16? As in resurrection? And doesn't this play along with what we saw in Room 23, the "God loves you as He loved Jacob"? Jacob was, after all, a pivotal figure in the Old Testament...as one commenter put it, "There is a tension that characterizes most of Jacob's life. On the one hand, God made promises to Jacob that he would provide for every important issue in his life. On the other hand, Jacob struggled to attain those same issues through his own means. This is the tension in which Jacob lived most of his life." I mean, Jacob LITERALLY wrestled God...and during the match, God CRIPPLED Jacob by dislocating his thigh.
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Does that sound like anyone else we know? Maybe a certain John Locke, who "wrestled" with his destiny/purpose, to the point where the island (or, off the island, faith) repeatedly "took his legs" when he deviated from the path (the blast door falling on him, losing his legs temporarily when he was going to climb into the plane that killed Boone, being unable to walk initially and contemplating suicide when Ben left him in the Dharma pit, getting shot by Ethan in the leg during time jumps...). John Locke, who is now dead, but might be resurrected BY the island/Jacob?
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Or does 316 have a much more innocent explanation? Say, a date (March 16) when the Oceanic 6 can return? Or, perhaps, a Flight Number on Ajira Airways?

@ Dave - Evil Island? That's gonna bug me all day...
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@ Tom - I don't mean to put words into Robo-James' mouth, but when we've talked about "killed" in the past, I've understood it to mean dead-but-not-dead, in some weird, voodoo way. Like maybe Claire. I doubt that Locke/Bentham has been pulling a "Snow White" and is actually live but for the piece of apple blocking his windpipe.
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And while I'm on it, Darlton have said that Christian is dead-dead. Will Locke's corpse's return make him the new "Christian", showing up randomly with advice/spookiness? If Locke doesn't fully come back to life, what will his role be for the rest of the series? (Granted, not like we know where the rest of the series is going)

Now that James has made me famous I suppose I have to put my two cents in...
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The one thing pointing me to thinking Ben is involved in Bentham's death was Alpert's comment to Locke that he "has to die." For whatever reason it seems like that's been pre-ordained.
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@Chad- like your theory on 316. The other thing I thought it might refer to was the bearing to get back to the island. It was 305 before, maybe Faraday finally makes his new calculation with that gold gizmo he pulled out in the S5 premiere (which we haven't seen since, oddly enough).
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@Dave- it occurs to me after reading your comment that it could go back to the whole faith vs. science thing. The Island obviously requires a certain amount of faith from people (i.e., Locke), and Ms. Hawking - named after a scientist - is battling the Island. Interesting. I'd always assumed Hawking was on the Island's side, though I don't know why.

Happy Lost Day!
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@Dave - way to challenge assumptions!
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@Chaddog - good thinking on the John 3:16 - remind me, was that what was carved into Eko's stick?

I'm struggling with the Jacob-Locke comparison. Through Jacob's young life, not only was he rebelling against God, but he was flat out running away from God. It took wrestling with God to bring him around. Locke has always believed he was special, but always managed to mess it up (picking the wrong item, not going to the Mittelos camp, getting thrown out of a window). Even on the Island, he was always trying to do what the Island wanted, not running away from what the Island wanted.
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Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it
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To be honest, I really don't know if I put much stock into the Island really being evil. Part of me really likes the theory, and part of me immediately thinks of problems with it (if the Losties are really there to battle the Island, why would it want the O6 to come back?). Though, like Matt said, it's going to bug me all day also. @antilles - I had also always assumed Hawking was on the Island's side, and I hadn't really questioned it until this thought sprung to mind. I guess that's why it's good for discussion.

@shara -- according to Lostpedia, John 3:16 is one of the few verses that DO NOT appear on Eko's stick.
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@Dave -- a couple more interesting points on the Jacob idea. Jacob had a brother named Esau; "Esau became a hunter, a man of the field, but Jacob was a simple man, a dweller in tents" (Gen. 25:27). Calls to mind Locke (Esau/hunter) and Ben (Jacob/staying in tents with the Others). Jacob (with the aid of his mother) tricks his father into giving him his blessing on his deathbed (although this was foretold by God before their birth); Esau feels betrayed by Isaac's blessing upon Jacob. Hints of Ben's feelings of betrayal over "Jacob" choosing to talk to Locke? (And yes, I realize I just switched around Ben and Locke in terms of who is "Esau" and who is "Jacob" in that comparison...)
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Jacob's "preferred" wife, Rachel (he had children with 3 other women/wives/handmaidens) was barren until very late in her life, when she gave birth (somewhat miraculously) to Joseph, the multi-colored coat wearing dream interpreter (she later gave birth to ANOTHER son named...you guessed it, Benjamin). A hint regarding the lack of childbearing on the island? A clue that John Locke (who has visions, most vividly in the sweat lodge) and Ben may be related?
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The place where Jacob wrestles the angel is named Penuel, meaning "face of God"....somewhat like Locke looked into "the eye" of the Island.
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Anyways....all interesting parallels, and certainly questions to ponder as the season proceeds.

@Chaddogg - I'm going to add to your Biblical scholarship, slightly. When Joseph's brothers were making preparations to go to Egypt to purchase grain, Jacob would not let Benjamin go with them (because he was the sole remaining son of his favorite wife). That reminds me how -- apparently -- Jacob didn't want Ben to move & leave the Island.
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I've been trying to think of other possible meanings of "316". It could be the number - 316 of something... anything I guess would be a real shot in the dark, so I won't bother. But it could also be the year 316 (BCE or CE) - perhaps the Leftbehinds get sent to the Ancient past, and that's where the mysterious statue comes in. (Fun fact: according to Wikipedia, in the year 316, the Western *Jin* dynasty of China ended)

Given what this episode is likely to be about, my bet is that "316" has something to do with how they get back to the island, so a bearing, perhaps. I am interested to find out more about the relationship between Ben and Ms. Hawking -- it was especially telling that Ben seemed surprised by a) Desmond's appearance and b) that Desmond was looking for Faraday's mum. I guess Ben's crack team of researchers who turned up Charlotte's entire life story and parentage neglected to fill him in on that little tidbit about Daniel (speaking of which, how does the information that Ben shared about Charlotte last season now mesh with the revelation that she grew up on the Island? Did Ben know that all along?).
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Anyway, my impression so far is that the relationship between Ben and Hawking may be mostly a matter of convenience and common interests -- and maybe a common enemy in Widmore. Assuming that Ellie = Hawking, then we know that she and Widmore have a history that predates Dharma. I can imagine that Dharma came along and messes everything up with their hatches and barracks and digging and such. For some reason, Ellie and Widmore both leave the island (or are forced to leave), and unlike Richard, they both age which suggests they aren't Original Islanders. Anyway, Widmore is now desperate to re-find the Island (to become non-aging like Richard?). However, Hawking for some reason manipulated things so that Desmond would meet Penny (at the monastery) and thus get involved with Widmore. Did she also know that Desmond would crash on the Island, and also that Desmond would cause Oceanic 815 to fall out of the sky?? Is this what Jacob wanted to have happen? I just think that it is interesting that Ben, who for so long has seemed like the one in control, now seems like he is as much at the mercy of the Island as everyone else.

followup thought #1: I realized that Widmore hasn't aged as much as would be suggested by his appearance back in 1954, so either he got some of that Richard-mosturizer before he left or another sort of time jump happened.
followup thought #2: I'm sure this has been speculated before, but it just occurred to me that perhaps Mrs. Hawking is Penny's mother? Did Ellie and young Charles have a fling? Is that too soap-operaish?

I know there was speculation that Ellie and Charles are Daniel's parents, but I haven't heard much stating that she'd be Penny's mom (though it makes sense). Have we seen Charles Widmore wearing a wedding ring?

@profdante - Perhaps Hawking & Widmore only aged because they aren't on the island any more, which isn't *necessarily* connected to their Island originalism. As far as your point about Ben no longer being in control, I think what LOST has shown over time is that Ben is only in control so long as he is doing the will of the Island/Jacob. The pathos of the character, and the reason he became sympathetic last season (to me, at least), is due to the fact that he seems to have fallen out of the Island's/Jacob's graces.
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What I'd really like to see in tonight's episode is Hawking address how she transcended Des' flashback in season 3.

Besides, Ben "always has a plan"... I'm not worried about Mr. Linus

My initial thoughts were that 316 was a flight number, but love the other ideas offered as well (and given that this is Lost, is anything ever limited to only one meaning?)
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@Matt - Great point about Hawking. Her part in Des's timeline really confuses me, and if not tonight, I do hope it gets addressed.
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Do the original versions of Des' memory ever actually occur (i.e., he doesn't buy the ring of his own valition), or does Hawking somehow get knowledge of the events to occur and pre-empt Des's future consciousness from disturbing the 'correct' outcome in the first place? Makes me wonder if future Des and past Ellie are in for a run in at some point...

Here's a topic apropos of nothing: is anyone surprised at how much we haven't seen so far?
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What I mean is, the show is obviously quite a bit ahead in filming - so much so that we've seen material in previews that still hasn't aired. Off the top of my head:
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The very first preview had a still-bearded Jack in a recorded video with the Dharma name superimposed over it. But we've still seen no evidence of why Jack would go to them for help, or even that modern Dharma factors into anything whatsoever. Logistically, it makes perfect sense that they would have Fox grow out his beard prior to filming, record all of his bearded scenes this season right off the bat (even if the scenes won't appear for months on end), then shave him for the rest of the season. But why include this in the previews? Why would shaved Jack be a giveaway?
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Another scene I've seen repeatedly is Locke, inside an old-style tent (like Korean/Vietnam vintage) backing away from someone apparently inclined to give him immediate surgery with a hunting knife. Does Bentham indeed end up in the past? Is their level of medicine weak enough that Bentham loses a leg? (Have we seen Bentham from the waist up?) Why does fate keep trying to hobble him?
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Any other previewed scenes that we still haven't seen?

I'm not sure if this is too spoilerific, but some of the Ajira stuff looks to point to there being a flight 316 (check Lostpedia's Ajira Airways page). Far be it from Lost to have multiple meanings for their episode titles, though

I thought I saw something in the previews for tonight's episode which would relate to the dead or "dead" Locke. Maybe I'm wrong, but did anyone else see this: when Jack opened the casket in the preview, I thought Locke had a five o'clock shadow. When we've seen Locke in the casket before, wasn't he clean-shaven? If so, he could be in some sort of suspended animation, slowing down but not stopping body functions like hair growth. Maybe he's now only "island alive", and he will rise like Lazarus when he returns. We already know he and the island are "wired" in some way, since he got his legs back when he arrived. If so, it could be that Ben didn't "kill" Locke at all, but merely retrieved the body when Locke dropped. Or not. Who knows with this show?

THIS EPISODE WAS AWESOME!!!

I loved this episode! So much juiciness.. loved watching and enjoying all of this forum's hard speculatory work..haha

high points..

- Jin in the Dharma garb!! Did not see that comin.
- Opening scene was awesome.. nice fake out for the Pilot episode thoerists..
- Jack and Kate!
- Ben is still hilarious ("How can you read" "My mother taught me" - this is also interesting considering his mother died during child birth!!! WTF?)

Anyone else enjoy it as much as I?

Here are some mysteries to chew on..

- Why does Kate change her mind? Seems Aaron was obviously taken from her..

- Who beat up Ben?

- How did they end up on the island? Seems like they simply entered the island's bubble and time transported.. BUT, if thats the case, why were they not transported when they were on the copter???

- What happened to the plane and the rest of the passengers? Why is the other man (across from Hurley that gave Jack condolences) important??

- How did Hurley get free? Can we presume Sayid confessed? If so, why is he extradited to GUAM????

- Who was the "brilliant man" that built the Pendulum at the Lamp Post????

- What is in Hurley's Guitar case??? Food?

- Which passenger got the Ajira water bottle to the island???

- obviously, where is Ben and Sun and Sayid now?

I'm sure there are others!!!!!