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Lostwatch: That '70s Show
Before you read this post, quit dancing with that girl, turn your attention to the multiple video monitors, and watch last night's Lost.
So for the strandees, the flashes have stopped. For the rest of us, however, they are just (re)beginning. Question: are the 1977 scenes flash-back-forwards, or are the 1974 scenes flash-back-backs?
I'm guessing "LaFleur" will be a polarizing episode for Lost fans. It was chock-ful of the multiplying side characters, chronology that requires a slide rule, and dense history that make some people think Lost is a tease, an endless network of bottomless rabbit holes. Me, I can watch Dharma Initiative stuff until the second coming (of Locke, anyway), so I was in geek heaven with this one. The nerdiness, the cultiness, the microbuses—I love it all. Then again, I also liked the first part of season 3, and pretty much anything involving any hatch, ever, so take that with a grain of salt.
Before we get to the Dharma download, however, credit to Josh Holloway for a good character performance in what was a pretty mythology-heavy episode. While I thought it was a little heavy-handed to have the entire Horace-Amy story serve as a setup to the question "Is three years long enough to get over someone?" (answer: not if that person is a major cast member), it was a nice, sweet moment when Sawyer chided Horace about missing his baby's birth—especially given what we know about Clementine. He's so sensitive when he wears his glasses! (I hope Dharma was finally able to equip him with prescription lenses.) And I had always hoped Sawyer and Juliet would become a thing. Shame that's not likely to last.
I will give one thing, however, to the critics' of Lost's endless complications. One of the frustrating/challenging aspects of the show, five seasons in, is that not only do you have to remember events stretching through the show's history, you also have to remember which of the characters know what you know, and who has met whom. Thus I found myself straining to remember, for instance, how Sawyer knows Richard Alpert and how he knows the history of the Black Rock. (I may be blanking, but I don't recall Sawyer and Richard meeting in "Jughead"; he might have encountered Richard and the Black Rock around the time of "The Brig," but I don't recall and am not about to dig it up now, so those with superior Lost-fu are welcome to enlighten me in the comments.) Personally, I like the challenge, but I can see why people just give up after a certain point.
On to the hail of bullets:
* Can we / should we assume that Locke and the other Ajira survivors are also in 1977, separated only in space and not time from Sawyer and company? Or is that assuming too much?
* The Sawyer-Kate reunion might have been a tad more affecting had it not been given away in last week's spoileriffic preview. I have to remember to start avoiding those.
* Incidentally, while that may get most of the attention, for me the more touching reunion was Daniel's with child Charlotte—Jeremy Davies made his tortured loss mingle with joy at the slight glimpse of the girl he would eventually love.
* The baby. I assume there are theories out there already as to who it is, but I'm at a loss. Too young to be Ben (whose birth is already accounted for anyway), too male to be Charlotte (who appeared in the episode as a girl anyway)—but I can't think of anyone else purported to be born on the Island who would have been around 30 at the time of the Oceanic crash.
* For that matter, the fact that survivors of Oceanic 815 are now themselves figures in Dharma history opens any number of possibilities for how they could influence their own "future"—I'm too exhausted to think about it, but you're welcome to have at the possibilities.
* Favorite guest casting? Jimmy from Mad Men? Michelle from 24? Or Herc from FNL?
* One thing that's still a mystery about the Others is that, while Richard Alpert may not have changed, the Others/Hostiles definitely seem to change, as an organization. "Jughead" showed them as a tightly disciplined, militaristic outfit; this episode—at least with the murder of Amy's husband—made them seem more like a sadistic cult. (And what was up with their demand for Paul's body?) Later, they purge Dharma, but take on many of its trappings. Maybe the Others have a way of absorbing the attributes of whatever groups they encounter/destroy. But what are they originally, at their core?
* With Sawyer doing the heavy emotional lifting in this episode, Miles edged him in the sarcastic-remark sweepstakes by a nose, I think, particularly with the rant about the yo-yo-ing between the beach and the Orchid: "It's the only two plans you people have."
* What happened to keep Sawyer et al. from being shipped off by sub two weeks later? I sense this will be a future Lost Discussion Group question.
* And speaking of who knows what about whom: We know that Juliet joined the Others around 2001, but what did they tell her about their history? Does she know the Purge is coming—about 15 years from the "present," if my math is right—or do they leave that bit out of the Orientation film?
* We saw the statue! Check one item off the "promise kept" list—though I hope there is more explanation about the four-toed feet, someday, besides "They belonged to a really big eight-toed guy."
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1
Excellent episode! Finally, some more meaty material. I enjoyed the performances by all. Jeremy Davies is just excellent.. (seems like we are starting to see the beginning of his nervous breakdown that led to his crying spell)
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My random guess of the day is that the baby is Daniel Faraday. If that's true, then he would have been kidnapped by the Others at some point, to think Eloise was his mother.
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Speaking of Spoilers, this is exactly why I urge people not to talk about Previews!!! I didn't see the preview and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing the reunion for the first time during the show (though obviously, you pretty much knew it would happen).
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James , I think they wanted Paul's body to appease the rest of the 'hostiles' - to show that they killed someone in return for the killing of their men. Without the body, they can't keep the other hostiles from wanting to revolt.
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I still maintain that the statue is an ancient egypt thing... but somewhere inside I feel like they'll in the end reveal that its one of the 815-ers faces. -
2
A few more thoughts before bed...
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- I feel like that cross from Paul is very significant for some reason. Have we seen this anywhere on the island before???
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- This was my first LOST episode in front of my brand new Samsung 52 inch LCD!! WOOOO!!!! Thanks Circuit City for sucking so hard! -
3
@Natego: I think Paul's necklace was an ankh, which would bolster the ancient Egyptian reference. Dd we see ankhs carved into the temple?
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4
Loved this episode. Seriously. A mind-frak from beginning to end.
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I love Sawyer's con-man skills being turned on their head -- he realized he was in the "past" (and thus, had knowledge of the future and/or past) and used his knowledge (both future as an 815er, and as a time traveller back to Jughead days) to con everyone as to who he was....conning Horace with the idea they were searching for the Black Rock (which Sawyer knew about from "The Brig") and Alpert (using the knowledge from "Jughead"). A PHENOMENAL Sawyer episode.
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Related to that -- Sawyer and Juliet? Really? I mean, I get it -- 3 years is 2.5 years or so more than Sawyer spent with Kate on the island....but those two? Really? And the Sawyer "sneak out on Juliet and don't tell her Kate is there" trick? WOW!!!! THAT is what you call deep character/story work.
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I'm a little intrigued as a theorist about the "truce" between the Dharma and the Hostiles. Why the importance about burying Hostiles? Is it to hide them from discovery by Alpert???? Or is it MORE than that....I mean, the 815ers were either cremated, or buried (under sand or water), with the NOTABLE exception of Christian Shephard and, now, John Locke. So is the Hostiles' concern with burial about PREVENTING resurrection? And why does Alpert want Amy's husband's (Paul's? How about that for a biblical name, a la Jacob, by the way?) body?? -
5
@James -- I DO NOT think we can assume that Ajira made it to 1977...in fact, I think there is a STRONG presumption that did NOT happen. At least, in terms of Sun and Frank Lapidus. Of course, and, I must warn all those reading, SPOILERISH ALERT...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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It looks like Sayid made it to 1977 according to the preview for the next episode. So does that mean ALL of them made it? Or was Sayid unique? Why? Where/when is Sun? And where/when is Ben/Locke? -
6
Ummmm, weird question: where and/or when the heck is Bernard and Rose?
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I gotta say, THAT is a big question.
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By the way, it was AWESOME how the show started -- you almost DIDN'T realize it was a new episode for a while....and THEN they show you the 4 toed statue. GREAT work, Lindelof. -
7
While I don't think this episode is among the show's best (it's very good), the type certainly is - a very character-centric story with lots of mythology/history. Just like the last two episodes. We learn some DHARMA history but not enough to leave us satisfied, and we see Sawyer really grow into that leadership role Hurley tricked him into oh-so-long ago.
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Some questions/thoughts:
-LaFleur, I'm pretty sure, is French/Cajun for "the flower" - what's the significance? Other than the Orchid, somehow.
-We saw all the LeftBehinds in '77 other than Daniel, so is it possible he's a) with the Hostiles b) sent through time (season premiere intro) or c) just offscreen? I'd love - LOVE - to see "a".
-Horace was with Amy in '77. So when does Olivia show up? What happens to Amy?
-Why does Juliet stay and not leave after 2 weeks? More flashbacks, perchance!
-I do not buy Horace's explanation that he was just throwing dynamite at trees willy-nilly. There has to be something more. -
8
After hitting "send" I realized that Horace and Olivia would have had to have run into Roger, Emily & newborn Ben BEFORE 1974 or else Ben would be too young (we think his age in 2004 is early 40s, right?)
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9
Assuming everyone is in 1977 is a terrible idea - Caeser specifically said they disappeared from the plane.
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Not only did last week's preview ruin the Kate reunion, but that Sun is definitely in Ben's time period (jump editing be damned).
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The baby: They are now in 1977. It was 2004 when 815 crashed, so the baby (and it probably has to be someone we "know", if they avoided naming him) is only ~27 when the series starts. Most likely options are Ethan the Other, Kate's bankrobbing boyfriend, or Aaron's father (Claire's boyfriend).
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I totally dug that the security logo was a Dharmatized
sheriff's badge.-
Was that The Pearl in the opening bit? That seems to strongly suggest that The Incident did indeed damage The Swan, if its operation now has to be monitored 24/7.
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Interesting the mention about "The Truce", isn't it? Such a condition could be called "peace", meaning we could still be in Widmore's reign, with the Incident seeming ever more likely to be his Wheel usage. (And what probably boots the 815 crew into "the present", more or less.)
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And the body related rules do seem indicative of something. Given the ankhs shown (usually connected to ressurection),
perhaps Christian/Locke weren't uncommon in the past.
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Sigh, Horace too knows all. He didn't even blink when the Black Rock was mentioned. Unless it crashes onto the Island with Widmore's wheel usage, in 1977 or later, but then where did he get the dynamite from now?
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Daniel isn't with the Hostiles, he's cooped up with Candle/Wick/Chang, making videos for future comic-cons. I did like Miles pulling a Pushing Daisies and working as the world's best murder investigator though. -
10
One of my favorite lines in a while was Sawyer to Amy, explaining that she should just tell him the truth because it'll be all over the Coconut Telegraph soon anyway.
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Shades, of course, of his previous reference to the Coconut Internet (in conversation with Hurley?) But then, the D.I. wouldn't know about the Coconut Internet yet. -
11
"Can we / should we assume that Locke and the other Ajira survivors are also in 1977, separated only in space and not time from Sawyer and company? Or is that assuming too much?"
I'm pretty sure Locke & Co. are in 2008. Didn't their plane land on the small runway that was being built in Season Three?
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12
Thought about Horace and the dynamite -- he was throwing it at trees, right?
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Shades of Smokey, no? Smokey ALWAYS seems to be blowing up trees from their base (or pulling them out of the ground, or pushing them out from beneath). Was drunken Horace, at the fence-line, trying to "goad" Smokey into action? -
13
Great point, Chaddogg. I noticed the same thing about Horace and the trees.
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14
@Tom - I think they were deliberate in not showing Daniel or Chang (or anything that would hint at the Incident). If Chang really loses his arm in the Incident, then we know it happens before the Linuses get there, and so if Ben really did trick Widmore into leaving the Island, then Widmore couldn't have been the cause of the Incident (unless Ben also get sent back to 1977 and found the Others to trick Widmore into leaving... but that's a stretch to me). I do agree that the Incident will boot Our Heroes back to the present. (Can we even call them 815ers any more? I suppose now that the O5 are back, more than half of them were on the plane.)
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I seem to recall that Sawyer has made French jokes before, probably about Rousseau. Even if he hadn't, in S1, he was definitely the type, and seeing him use a French name amused me.
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I also agree that Team Ajira is still in 2008 on the Hydra island. I'm confident that the O5 are all in 1977.
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The romantic sucker in me loved Sawyer and Juliet at first, then the rational side of me groaned and got annoyed, but now I'm okay with it. It makes sense, considering all they've been through. Maybe we'll see more of them getting together, but even if we don't, I'm fine with what they've given us.
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I think the statue scene was in there as a hat-tip to serious fans and a reminder to casual fans (the ones who all said "who's this Eloise Hawking lady, and why is she suddenly so important?"). -
15
The more I think about it, the sadder I get about Sawyer and Juliet. I mean, you can't have real happiness and romantic resolution a season and a half from the end. And yet both actors sold it so well... I was completely sucked in. In Alan Sepinwall's words, "Sawyer and Juliet fit so well together that it was almost disappointing to see him set eyes on Freckles again at the end."
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Sawyer and Juliet are the most complete and responsible of the romantic quadrilateral, and I'm really dreading the romantic upheaval of bringing Kate and Jack back into the mix. I really, really want to see Sawyer and Juliet put their foot down and be like, "Hey, we've been together for 3 years, and this is great. We're not ruining this for an old 108-day fling." -
16
Two things with this episode, first I swear that the rocking chair in Sawyers room, is the same as the one that was in Jacobs cabin. Second wouldn't it really melt your brain if that giant egyptian statue would really be from the future and not the past.
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17
I liked how they have Sawyer pick the flower for Juliet with his faux-name being LaFleur. I think the flower metaphor was quite prevalent throughout the episode.
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Again, I really thought there was no mystery in the fact that the others needed Paul's body in order to show there was some sort of retribution for the killing of the two Others. This seemed really obvious to me and not of any mysterious quality. Also, I thought the notion of burying the bodies was also very obvious - they needed to hide them from being discovered by the Others - jeopardizing the truce.
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@Paul - if they flight landed safely on a runway, why were so many people injured on the flight? I believe the plan crashed a la 815.
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Here's a thought - Perhaps Paul was an Other that converted to the DI or was planted in there as a spy. That would explain the Egyptian type necklace. Perhaps he betrayed the Others which is why they killed him. In fact - Perhaps why they need the body - To show the OTHERS that this is what happens when you betray us! -
18
@hzak5 - If the statue was from the future, why was only a leg left of it in the past? Were they building the statue one leg at a time?
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19
Did Horace or any other Dharma people ever state what year it was. I know Sawyer told Richard Alpert that it had been 20 years since the H-Bomb encounter but he was probably just estimating. The reason I bring this up is that would have made Charlotte around 33 or 34 (the red headed girl looked to be around 3 years old) when she came to the island in late 2004. Rebecca Mader is a few years younger than that and characters tend to be slightly younger than the actors who play them. But in this case I am guessing they made her slightly older for storytelling purposes.
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Plus, when we first met Horace Goodspeed he had a wife named Olivia. She was little Ben's teacher. I am assuming that this episode takes place after Ben and his father first came to the island.
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For the chronology to make sense Sawyer and crew first came to Dharma around 1976 or '77. So Jack and Kate arrived in '79 or '80. Then again, maybe it doesn't make any sense
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The statue was my favorite part of the episode. It's almost beet three years since we last saw that thing. If it is even the same statue. -
20
I thought this episode was awesome. A few thoughts:
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1) Sawyer and Juliet: Since folks had been speculating for a long time that the two of them would get together, it wasn't a surprise. I wasn't expecting to like them together, but I totally did. I loved seeing Sawyer having become the person that he always had the potential to be - caring, responsible, open, etc - and it was nice to see Juliet happy for once. I am actually now hoping that he doesn't wind up with Kate, which is bizarre because until last night I've always been a total shipper for them. Kate always screws everything up for Juliet, just by being around. Mr. Shara Says kept saying "Juliet just needs to shoot Kate".
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2) Sawyer can totally carry an episode. Just saying.
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3) Do we know how much time passed between The Incident and The Purge? Because I'm trying to find some way to look at the Purge from another angle - which I'm sure is going to happen eventually. Could something have happened in the Incident that "changed" the Dharma folks (i.e. everyone not protected by communion with the island), putting the Hostiles in the same position as, say, Rousseau had been in with her team - where the Dharma folks weren't themselves anymore, but had been possessed/whatever, which made the mass killing a necessity or something?
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4) Still no Rose and Bernard? I'm still wondering if its possible that they constantized each other and stopped flashing, and are now stuck in some other time.
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5)From behind, I thought that the statue looked very much like the egyption jackal god thing - annubis. The head was really funny shaped, and I just got that impression. I went to wikipedia and looked up annubis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis , and that's what I'm going with until I hear other evidence to the contrary, It could make a lot of contextual sense, because annubis had stuff to do with death and rebirth, tombs, cemetaries, weighing of hearts, gatekeeper to the underworld, and lots of other stuff that sounds very Islandy to me. -
21
@natego- that's an interesting theory on why they needed Paul's body. I get everyone saying they needed it to convince the other Hostile's that there was already retribution, but they could acheive that simply by having Richard see the body. The Hostile's would have to take his word for it, wouldn't they? There's got to be more to it, and I kind of like your theory.
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I'm not a huge Sawyer fan, but I loved this episode. Maybe it was simply because it's been two full seasons since we've had a Sawyer-centric episode. (Seriously, the last one was 3.04 - that's kind of insane for such a major character.) It was good to see Holloway get to play more than the "pissed-off rogue" for a change. The difference between Sawyer 1974 and "Dharma Sawyer" three years later was quite startling. When Juliet came out and announced Amy's delivery went well, and he got that huge, genuine smile on his face - seriously, have we ever seen Sawyer smile like that?? - I loved it. And major props to Holloway for the scene with him and Horace re: getting over someone in three years. (I totally buy Sawyer/Juliet, btw, much moreso that Skate. Mostly b/c they have that same wry/sarcastic sense of humor, and Juliet never saw Sawyer acting like a total ass for two seasons.)
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I think Jack & Co. HAVE to be in a different time period than Locke & Co. The "sheriff" dancing in the station mentioned something about the polar bears getting out of their cages - cages which were at the Hydra station, the same station Caesar was rifling through last episode. They have to be different time periods.
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DDK finally gets to speak English on a regular basis!! He must be thrilled. -
22
should we take sawyer at face value when he said it was 1974 or was that a sawyerism/rough estimate?
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Does anyone else think it must be awkward for the writers now that it's clear the 2 leads are among the weaker actors on the show and by far the most annoying characters? seriously, anything involving Jack and Kate just drags this show down. I'm hoping they go for a surprise and kill both of them off, ASAP. it would be good for shock value AND help the show immensely. -
23
@natego - the Ajira flight did not land safely on the runway, but it sure was in a lot better shape than 815 was in. Considering that it was all (or mostly) in one piece, and not in flaming bits scattered across the Hydra island, I'd say that the runway played a role. This seems really obvious to me. (Sorry, I just had to throw that comment in there
)
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I actually think there's more to needing both Paul's body and the Hostile bodies. If Richard needed to know he was dead for retribution's sake, they could just show him the body. I'm inclined to think it has something to do with Smokey, but I have nothing to base it on.
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@chriskw - I'm pretty sure Sawyer said it was 1977, and I trust him at that. If they've been there for 3 years, they'd be able to glean what year it is
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@shara - 1)After seeing Juliet and Sawyer together, I really want them to end up together too. Maybe this means Jack and Kate will somehow fix their problems (probably not happening), or maybe it means Jack and Kate will get teleported back a few hundred years to die in a cave together. 2)Absolutely agree. 3)Before this episode, the Incident appeared to be mid-70's. Now, I'm thinking the Incident happened in 1977 (or maybe 1978, if the O5 show up late in the year). We know that the Purge happened on December 19, 1992. 4)I don't think Rose & Bernard are stuck in another time... I just think the producers are waiting to drop them on us in classic Lost bombshell fashion. 5)GREAT catch on Anubis, Shara! Check this HD screen cap: http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/5ec86b30a63635da25c16b67748e0694 It sure looks like that's an ankh in the statue's hand. (What exactly that means or implies, I have no idea) -
24
Something I just thought of, not really a theory but just a brain-nugget: in '74, Richard still dresses business-casual when dealing with non-Hostiles. And yet, within 5 years (we presume) he appears to pre-teen Ben with shaggy hair and "mountain man" clothing. So what changed between the Hostiles & the DI's relationship between that point where Richard starts playing dress-up (assuming that's what it is) or where they actually start dressing like that. I'm trying to remember Man Behind the Curtain - do the Hostiles dress like that during the Purge?
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@archstanton - I agree that Jack and Kate are the most annoying main characters, but I'm trusting that the producers are using that to give them a shot at redemption in season 6.
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