Lost Discussion Group: Spirit of '77

I do see them getting back to the present, probably sooner rather than later (by "sooner" I mean before the last couple episodes of this season). There's already an on-Island Lostie presence in the present.
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I also think that the Losties stuck in '77 were always there in '77. The one in the most danger is Daniel, since he has the most knowledge, and thus needs to do what he's always done, even though he hasn't done it yet, and thus won't remember doing it.

Happy Lost Day!
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@Dave: "I also think that the Losties stuck in '77 were always there in '77."
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That's along the lines of what I'm thinking too. I think that happened happened, and I'm hoping that the show does a 12 Monkeys thing with time - that whatever they do to try and change anything just feeds into how it actually happened in the first place, but by watching their actions we will get a whole other perspective on past events - so it will just be our understanding that will change, not the events themselves.

Happy Lost Day to you too, Shara.
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I'm torn between both theories - I think from a storytelling standpoint, it makes GREAT drama for the moment that Daniel realizes he is wrong about the immutability of time. A bunch of people have been theorizing that the show will become the Losties trying to prevent some horrible future by changing the timestream, so if that's the case, the past would have to be change-able.
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On the other hand, the "whatever happened, happened" theory creates one of the cooler problems with time travel. I'm pretty sure it's a Philip K. Dick story: what if the massive crowds allegedly at Jesus' crucifixion were actually a whole bunch of time travellers who had gone back to see it for themselves? Also, the Twilight Zone episode where the guy becomes Hitler's father. AKA, what if by going back in time to try to change the past, we actually create the present?

I'm really hoping that the show stays in the Dharma era for a while. That era was seemingly entangled with almost everything that happened in the first 4 seasons and it would be a waste not to use that era now.
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@shara: I'm with you on the 12 Monkeys angle. that was the best pop-culture handling of time travel i've ever seen. not only does Lost seem to be setting up that kind of scenario, but there are so many possibilities for them to play with it would almost be a letdown if they didn't.

I also agree with the "always in '77" gang . . . as Daniel implied (and I paraphrase): "what happens happened." And as to what Dave says, I don't know if I'd say Daniel is in "danger" . . . his actions WILL happen because they've ALREADY happened, in order for events to have led them to where they are. I think the showrunners are deliberately avoiding "time paradox" cheesiness with the "record" metaphor . . . you can't alter the record, only where the needle sets down.
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That said, I am also interested to know if some of my pet predictions (I'm sure others have thought of these too) will come true: will Hurley be the one to record the numbers/ etch them on the hatch in '77? I may be forgetting some key parts of the timeline, but I think it would be freakin' awesome . . . also, it would be incredibly cool if the pursuing group in the outrigger chase (a few episodes ago, when Locke, Sawyer, et al. were shot at in the ocean) contained Locke! Get it? Future Locke shooting at past Locke? A battle of the Locke's?
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Anybody?
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@archstanton68: "that was the best pop-culture handling of time travel i've ever seen."
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I know, right? It was awesome, I love that movie and I'm very attached to that way of explaining away the paradoxes of time travel.

all this talk of them always being in '77 made me think of another pop-culture parallel, although it's not really time-travel. In The Matrix, when Neo first meets the oracle, she tells him not to worry about the vase, which he breaks while turning to see what vase she was talking about. The oracle says, "what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?" That quote, imo, will be extremely relevant to how the group deals with their actions in the Dharma era. Specifically, with what Daniel said about what happens happened, would he warn Charlotte if she hadn't already told him he did? does knowing he already warned her free him to warn her again hoping that somehow she will heed his words this time?
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the only guarantee at this point is that whatever casual fans are left will probably be very frustrated, very soon.

@archstanton - you think casual fans are still left?
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I've been giving it more thought, and I don't think we can have a complete discussion of the confluence of time travel and predestination without considering, imo, Lost's coolest contribution to the topic: course correction. Thanks to Charlie, Desmond & Hawking, we know that destiny/fate in Lost is not concerned with the journey, but with the end result. If Sawyer and Juliet had not stepped in to save Amy, would something else have happened?
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Or, to use archstanton's example, Daniel & Charlotte. If Charlotte was MEANT to return to the Island, no amount of warning Daniel did/does/will do will matter - it may prolong her absence, but she will (and does) come back.
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I think, then, the "correct" phrase for the show is Most--But Not All--of Whatever Happened, Happened.

James, aren't you giving away your view of the answer when you use a quote from a book featuring a character who flat out declares the past is fixed?
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As for myself, as previously mentioned, I see the '77 batch spending the rest of the season then, until the finale of (probably) "The Incident", when Daniel digs up The Wheel and Widmore uses it, beginning the long decline of the Dharma Empire. (This would imply that young Ben is on the scene and about to "con" Widmore into leaving.)
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Now, the big question is, as you said, whether the past is malleable or not. I'm inclined to believe what the showrunners have suggested so far, that we are in a 12 Monkeys "The past is unalterable" scenario - not merely because trying to explain temporal paradoxes would lose even more of their audience, but because rewriting the past into a happy ending in the present is too easy an option.
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That said, though I am sure that the 815ers will end up causing half of what they've lived through, I think your examples are all unlikely. What you are neglecting is that most of what we know of Dharma History (via the Orientation Videos, etc.) is post-Incident, if not post-Purge. This pre-Incident 1977 is earlier than almost all the Dharma History we've seen, and so the causal loops have to be earlier - for example, I already mentioned that Ben will learn what he uses to become leader from 815ers, but also Candle will build The Swan (which was the "cause" of 815 going down, after all) from the Losties, etc. (Hurley recording the Numbers radio loop is already a given and doesn't count as a prediction.)

I have to say -- the Lost and Battlestar Galactica parallels are getting pretty thick, huh? I mean, how different is Faraday's "what happened, happened" from Pythia's/various Battlestar character's "All this has happened before. All this will happen again" philosophy/religious belief? The former has to do with the (supposed) immutable nature of time and time travel, while the latter has to do with history repeating itself...but is it that simple of a distinction?
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I have to believe that "something" has changed, just from the perspective that as a narrative, just seeing the past and what happened in the Dharma past doesn't necessarily do anything to "save" the folks left behind after the Oceanic 6 left.
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One theory I either came up with or read on Doc Jensen or elsewhere is that the final season is being set-up, with time travel, for the Losties to "jump" back to the aftermath of the Oceanic 815 crash -- this time with their knowledge of the past and how the island works, and they'll together "get off the Island" with the informed knowledge of what we've seen over the past 5 seasons...and in the process, get-over their personal problems (Jack's and Locke's daddy issues, Kate's need to run, Sawyer's need to be the bad guy, etc.)

@Matt - I was going to broach the course correction subject, but I think there's at least a small line separating time travel and course correction. I think there's a fine line between the will of the universe and what has already happened (Desmond's visions had not yet happened - history has).
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@Tom, re: Incident - I know I've made my opinions also known, but as long as we're restating our theories, I think that the Incident will be happening soon in 1977/78, Chang will lose his arm in the Incident, the Losties will be sent back to the present, then the Linus family will arrive and the Ben/Widmore theatrics will take place.

If I can be contrarian, I am not enthralled by this extended stay in the Dharma past. I feel like this veers dangerously close to Heroes territory, in the sense that it is hard to become invested in the story if you already feel like you know how it turns out (thankfully, Lost has avoided the Heroes error of 'alternate' pasts/futures where entire storylines can be wiped out with the crush of a butterfly). I want the story to feel like it has forward momentum, but I can't help but feel like all of this sidetracking into all things Dharma is literally going backwards instead. Aside from Richard Alpert, I really am starting not to care all that much about the Island past in general, and the Dharma Initiative in particular. However, now that all of our original Losties are back on the island, I reserve the right to change my mind again.

@ Dave - but with time travel in the mix, one man's history is another man's future. Now, maybe the course correction is also fated - Charlie actually never WAS supposed to die from electrocution/drowning/an-arrow-in-the-neck - and Desmond's visions are all a part of the path. But I feel like the show has been pointing not in that direction, so I dunno.

@Matt - I see what you're saying. I think that the ultimate curveball is Desmond being special. I have all sorts of speculation on that and how it relates to the time travel/course correction we've seen, all of which I'm very confident is backwards, inane, and horribly wrong

Speaking of "Desmond being special", that is the one aspect of this time travel business that I hate. It reeks of the writers giving themselves a get out of jail free card for when they screw up or write themselves into a corner. It seems a little lazy, imo.
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One other thing: I know the LDG topic is about the 77 crew, but what does everyone think is the situation in '08(?). I'd bet good money that we are about to finally get some resolution on the Zach/Emma situation as one/both of them will be named nominal leader of The Others.

Man now I want to watch 12 Monkeys again. Still Brad Pitt's best performance

@Tom - that'd be interesting, to have an episode where Zach or Emma is the focus, and they're seeing dead parents or something. Freaky...

Wow, I'm losing it -- who are Zach and Emma? Are those the kids taken from the Tail?

were Zach and emma the kids who were with Cindy?

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