Happy Lost Day! How Dead Is Ben?

Ben's HMO required that Jack perform the surgery.. Boy those HMO's are POWERFUL!!!!!!!!!!

it is suggested that if little Ben dies, it creates a paradox and that can't happen, so somehow little Ben does survive.. If old Ben was a ghost, why would a ghost get a tumor that needs to be removed?

In early season 3, when discussing the tumor, Ben talks about the healing properties of the Island - no better experience than recovering quickly from a gunshot wound to the chest!
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Aka, I think he survives. It'd be nifty if it's with Jack's help, sort of like how Juliet just "stepped out of retirement" and helped deliver Ethan.

I'm in the little Ben isn't dead camp. It would be deliciously ironic if Jack the janitor needs to choose between holding on to the way-backs cover story to protect them or saving the life of someone he hates and thinks is evil. What is the redemptive move there?
And doesn't it seem that the Islands recuperative powers were on full-blast for adult Ben, as he traipsed through the forest to the outriggers he got rid of his sling and was walking better than when he limped onto the plane. Of course an oar to the head kind of reverses that.

And I actually expect more if not clarity, at least specific answers from Lost than we got on BG, the showrunners philosophy on creating story is so different for the two shows the outcome has to be too.

I think Ben will be just fine; the shooting always happened, Horace always showed Ben how all the Dharma tech worked (and thus nullified their defensese) to lift his spirits afterward, no one suspected Ben would ally with The Others after they shot him, etc.
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And speaking of doctors, why are we fixated on Jack? I tried to block it out of my memory as well, but if you recall Juliet's (terrible) Season 4 flashback episode, we found out that Ben was fixated on Juliet because she reminded Ben of "her". What if "her" isn't Annie, but Juliet herself, who saved Ben when he was little before disappearing (in The Incident, when she jumps back to the present)?
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Speaking of which, why would you want Jack operating on anyone? Wasn't he a drug addict 72 hours ago?

Tom you are forgetting the magical island detox program!

Yargh. My two places of spoiler weakness are 1)next-week previews during the credits and 2)ABC's press releases. Normally, #1 isn't too bad, and with this episode, it didn't seem to reveal anything. #2 doesn't usually reveal plot details, but I glean a lot of detail from the "guest starring" list. This week, the press release gave a pretty huge spoiler and revealed what the episode is more or less about. I'm still holding out hope that anything the press release revealed will be played out in the first few minutes anyway, but either way, what's done is done.
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So that's my long-winded way of saying, "I guess I'm going to sit out this LDG." Or at least I'll sit out parts relating to what I know will happen

1) I know Ben probably has to be alive, but isn't it more interesting, story-wise, if he dies? That would mean Faraday is wrong, and that "Whatever happened, happened" is a fallacy (as, indeed, we've somewhat seen, with Faraday telling Desmond to find his mother)...and that the Losties had some control of their destiny, and were not always going to crash on the island, survive, escape, watch the island disappear, return but 30 years earlier, etc.
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I'm jumping onto the Doc Jensen theory -- Ben ends up in a coma. For, like, the rest of the season up until the finale. At which point he dies, and the "Incident" happens, pushing the Losties back (or forward?) to the original Oceanic 815 flight and crash, and Season 6 is Season 1 "redux", with certain characters (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, etc.) knowing what they need to do (and informed by their past trials) to save everyone.
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2) To go along with that idea, I think "Whatever Happened, Happened" cannot be the answer -- if anything, this episode and the rest of the season will be about exploring that statement's falsity. I'm going to use "Flashes Before Your Eyes" here -- it may be that the end OUTCOME is the same (i.e. Charlie dying) but how/why/what happened changes (dying disarming the Looking Glass jamming device vs. slipping on a rock tying a note to a seagull).
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In a strange sense, then, maybe Ben was ALWAYS going to die on the island. It then makes little difference if Sayid shoots him at 12, vs. him dying of his spine tumor (which was prevented by Jack crashing on the island), vs. him dying some other way...."what happened, happened" is true in the sense of Ben dying (or Charlie dying), but what happened surrounding that event (Oceanic 6 getting rescued, or the Purge being prevented) does change.
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Consider this my new meta-theory -- The Death and Taxes Time Travel Theory. The only thing certain in life is death and taxes, right? So when we say "what happened, happened" in terms of time travel, that's true only in the extent that people die where they are supposed to die. Ben was always supposed to die on the island. Same with Charlie, same with Charlotte. Same, too, arguably with Shannon, Boone, Ana Maria, Libby, Paolo and Nikki.
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However, while our deaths may be fated and certain (as well as their locations), we have the power to control what our lives and deaths mean. Charlie chose to have his death help save Aaron (and, he thought, Claire). Should Sayid die (and, to be clear, I have NO SPOILER information one way or another on that -- just a theory I've kicked around), he's "chosen" to make his death and life in the 1970s prevent Ben from eventually ending up as the creepy manipulator/genocidal madman. Ben, in many ways, put into movement Sayid's return which may cause Ben's own death as a 12-year old -- meaning he, in ways, chose to die at 12 rather than become what he became as an older man.
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It also brings new meaning to "live together, die alone." While our "lives" are inextricably intertwined and affect each other in a myriad of ways (the overarching theory of Lost, in many respects), our deaths are peculiarly our own -- always fated to occur at a certain place, albeit not in a predestined way or predestined time, giving us control over the meaning of our own life through our individual death.
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Wow....how's that for a mind blowing theory?

After rewatching the other day "Flashes before your Eyes" the thing that bothered me is that it took some pretty strong words from Hawking to convince Desmond to carry out the events as they were "supposed" to (following the WHH rules). If she hadn't said anything, Desmond would have gone through with the marriage proposal. She had to scare the crap out of him to prevent history from not being carried out.
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This makes me doubt overall the WHH theory, though the main reason it persists is because TPTB have said that this is their preferred system of time travel.

In other words, WHH is what is SUPPOSED to happen, not what HAS to happen. If Desmond marries Penny, it is detrimental to the proper order but it is not impossible for things to be changed somehow. So, WHH is the rule in the sense that if the rule is not followed, existence is shattered somehow.

Wow, Chaddogg I really, really like your theory, it's logical, thorough and makes for great subtle storytelling. And I had wanted since the time traveling started for them to be able to go back and relive things with better information and change thing, cause -- you know, I care about these characters and they've all been through hell, and I want to believe that they are on the island to grow and overcome their baggage, hence the flashbacks to toy airplanes and tattoos BUT our dear showrunners have been adamant in all sorts of articles and other forums that that isn't their brand of time travel. So I I don't see how the final season can be a redux of season 1. Whatever redemption or awakenings our characters have will have to be within the confines of them not changing anything, won't it?

BSG's unexplained happenings didn't annoy me, because it wasn't the point of the story... but with Lost (especially in the beginning) the whole point is what is the deal with this island? What's the relationship of the characters? Where are we? If there aren't at least semi-firm answers I'd be a annoyed. I think it's a different situation than BSG.

@Rorshach: My thoughts exactly.

@Chad - here's the trouble with that theory: the producers have said multiple times that they don't like paradoxes. That's their whole motivation for using the 12 Monkeys model of time. What you're suggesting is that, not only would Daniel be wrong about the way time works, but Cuse and Lindelof have been purposely lying to fans to mislead us about the show. This is the whole reason why the fake New Otherton Frank and Sun saw ticked me off so much.
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Even if Cuse and Lindelof hadn't been so steadfast about whatever happens happens, think about where this would put us: Back to the Future is a great movie trilogy. It's hilarious and fun. But it's a terrible way to treat time, and for a show like Lost, that would absolutely murder it.
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The thought of Season 6 actually being Season 1 version 2 doesn't sit well with me, time models aside. What would that do for resolution? So much of S1 was devoted to finding out about the Island in general, and it seems like it wouldn't be a fulfilling way to round out the series, considering the other plot lines the show has brought up.

@natego - I would guess that the reason Ms. Hawking had to be so adamant is that Desmond is special. They haven't touched much on that, but I suspect that fact will play a major role either later in the season or next season. Does that mean that Desmond alone can cause some sort of butterfly effect?
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One thing I've always pondered: was Ms. Hawking the woman who originally sold him the ring? We obviously never saw that on screen, but I'm wondering if she always kept an eye on him (with Widmore and Brother Campbell) to form his path to get to the Island.
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One curiosity I had about the timeline: assuming the Incident is in the '77-'79 range, and we know that the Purge was in December of '92, was Radzinsky just taking another turn in the Swan when he was paired with Kelvin, or was the idea of rotating people every so often put into the orientation film then abandoned? Nothing show-changing, but the thought struck me a few minutes ago

@Dave -- but see, I don't accept that Ben dying as a 12-year old is NECESSARILY a paradox. I mean, was Charlie escaping Desmond's initial visions of his death a paradox, if he was always supposed to die sooner? Isn't some Lostie (or Desmond, even) presumably alive now when they should have died in the Looking Glass in place of Charlie? Don't we have "proof" that the dead can walk around "alive" on the island (Christian, Locke), so maybe Ben is and always has been a ghost?
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Furthermore, how are we "sure" that young Ben and old Ben are the same? I mean, Ben HAS adopted other characters' identities before (specifically Henry Gale's)....what if Ben 2007 isn't actually Ben from 1977 all grown up? What if, instead, Ben 2007 is an imposter that adopted the Ben 1977 name and history because he wanted to be leader of the Others and knew this was the way to infiltrate them? What if THAT is the trickery by which Ben 2007 "stole" the island from Widmore -- by pretending to be a rightful replacement when he was not? (This plays into Jacob-Esau territory, by the way....Jacob tricked Isaac into giving him his blessing by pretending to be Esau....which means maybe that Island/Jacob = Isaac, Ben = Jacob, Widmore = Esau?)
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And even if they are the same, if Ben 1977 dies, how would "time" correct the paradox (in the sense of course correction a la Flash Before Your Eyes)? By restoring history to a time in which Ben DID NOT EXIST after being shot. That would necessitate Hurley/Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet jumping back/forward to themselves at the time of Ben 1977's death....but would they have the "memories" uploaded a la Desmond after Faraday knocks on the Hatch door?

@Dave -- the better question was, if Kelvin was in the original Gulf War in around 1991 (and we know he was, since that's where he met Sayid), did he pre or post-date the Purge? Did he join Radzinsky as part of Dharma, or separate from Dharma?

@Dave -- also, I still don't get the fake New Otherton argument. I mean, it had been 3 years and a massive firefight with the Freighters since Sun and Frank returned. Why wouldn't it have been trashed in that sense? And as for the Hurley picture, how do we know the Losties used the buidling in which it was located during their stay? Or that anyone from amongst the Others while living in New Otherton ever remembered the picture and put two and two together regarding Hurley/Jack/Kate being in the picture?
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I'm also intrigued that ALL of the characters on Michael's "list" that Ben gave him are in 1977 now -- Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley. So are the two connected (i.e. Ben selecting those 4 in part because he knew they'd be Dharma in 1977)? If so, why not Sayid and Jin as well?
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Also, I'm also getting intrigued by Miles' demand of $3.2 million from Ben....it ALWAYS was a weird number, but is there ADDED significance because of something that happened in 1977?

Furthermore, how are we "sure" that young Ben and old Ben are the same? I mean, Ben HAS adopted other characters' identities before (specifically Henry Gale's)....what if Ben 2007 isn't actually Ben from 1977 all grown up? What if, instead, Ben 2007 is an imposter that adopted the Ben 1977 name and history because he wanted to be leader of the Others and knew this was the way to infiltrate them?

We see Roger Linus treating Ben from 1977 as his son in this episode, and we saw Roger Linus treat Ben from 1992, who looks just like Ben 2007, as his son right before the Purge.

Young Ben is just mostly dead, and will be healed through Island mojo.

@Chad - there's a big difference between time correcting for Ben's hypothetical death ("That would mean Faraday is wrong, and that "Whatever happened, happened" is a fallacy") and Ben always getting shot in the chest and either dying/resurrecting or coming close to death and recovering.
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I'd thought about the idea that baby Ethan grows up to be the Ben that we know, but also keep in mind that we saw Ben carry out the Purge, and the same actor as adult Ben has a son-father talk with Roger.
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As for Kelvin, I'm inclined to think that he joined pre-Purge. If he were an Other, why would he try to get away on Desmond's boat? Then again, what if the Others recruited him under the guise of the DI? It's hard to say, based on the evidence.

I'm partial to the idea that the island is paradox proof. If anyone saw the three-part season 3 finale to the current iteration of Dr. Who, then you'll know about Paradox Machines.

@Chad - I'll concede that we haven't seen either of the two buildings shown in Namaste in any post-DI context, but I refuse to believe that the Others would use every New Otherton building but those two and not maintain anything in either of those buildings for 12 years. They maintained the facade of being the DI around outsiders when they needed to, but they hardly lived as the DI, so why would they need a giant Registration sign? Even if they didn't use those buildings, people would still go in them. Even if they kept the buildings locked up, what we saw didn't appear to have been left for 15 years untouched, so the Others at least would have cleaned up once in a while. If you're dusting a bunch of pictures in a building, would you close your eyes and never look at them? Someone would have recognized Hurley.
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I just really don't like the idea of there being two buildings in the background that the Others never used. How would you react if we saw Frank and Sun in 2008, and on the back of one of the houses, there was a huge note painted on the back saying, "Sun, we're stuck in 1977, go turn the wheel under the Orchid station!" And the rationale was, "Well, we never saw the back of that building in 2005, and the Others just never thought anything of the message." That's a little more explicit of an example, but that's how I see the buildings we saw in Namaste were in a real 2008 state.
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Let's not forget that Smokey moved ahead of Frank and Sun, and there was mist all over.

I personally don't buy the fake smokey-generated New Otherton either; just because The Others kept the buildings they used in good shape does not necessarily mean they kept everything in shape. And even if they bothered memorizing the faces of all the people that earlier members killed off (why, exactly?), who says they didn't recognize Hurley & Co. - both their need to show up in the past in the future and their inclusion on Ben's list would put them in the "do not harm" status.
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Now, that Sayid & Jin aren't on the list is interesting. Sayid is easy enough to explain - after the last episode, he won't be showing up on any Dharma staffing lists that Ben would be able to later compile. (And who knows if Ben would put him on the list anyway, when he knows Sayid will just end up shooting him later.)
Jin is far more interesting. Not that Time's comments persist from back then, but in the Season 4 finale, I questioned why Christian said Michael could go - what was the timing? Jack getting on the helicopter? Aaron getting on the helicopter? Or Jin getting into safe distance from the blast? Add to that Ben's surprise at Jin's survival, and his not being on the list, and it really looks like Jin did not survive the last time around - and Christian is manipulating events differently this loop. So if the overall history always stays the same (815-inspired conflict between Others & Dharma leads to The Incident), perhaps the individual players and their actions don't.

@chad.. if little Ben dies, then the Paradox occurs because Ben 2007 cannot be alive if little Ben dies. And following WHH, little Ben survives in order for Ben 2007 to be alive. As the other posters said, I think the Father-Son chat with Ben/Roger proves the relation.
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And again.. can't ghosts really have cancer????? And can ghosts travel to the outside world and communicate with a hotel clerk in Tunisia?? Ben is not a ghost.

@Tom - "So if the overall history always stays the same, perhaps the individual players and their actions don't." That's a slippery slope to get on. I think we're making this a lot more confusing than it has to be. Christian said Michael could go because the Island wouldn't let him die until his job was finished. His job was finished when the tank ran out, and the Island didn't need to keep saving him
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I'm not saying that the Others worked on memorizing DI faces - I'm saying that if you saw 20 pictures of groups of people like that, Hurley is probably the most memorable to stand out (unless they had a Predator as a recruit or something). This is just going to have to be something we disagree about - I look at the situation and say, "Why would they use and keep up all the buildings but two?" and you look at the situation and say, "Why do they have to bother keeping up every building?" I still hold that it's a cheap trick for them to say, "You never saw it before, so this anomaly could really exist!"